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Old 07-08-2017, 02:52 PM   #11
Junge
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It'd be cool if there was a 'poison attack' trait, since some animals like snakes or or frogs or dragons or whatever might secrete/inject debilitating substances. I'm thinking like:

Quote:
Novice:
Poison Beast I
Beast Trait
Assigned Pet
Any Trainer
The beast either secretes (on its skin or by spitting) or injects (by means of teeth, claws, or other appendage) a noxious poison. The poison is equal to hallucinogenic poisons.

Advance:
Poison Beast II
Beast Trait
Assigned Pet
Any Trainer
The beast either secretes (on its skin or by spitting) or injects (by means of teeth, claws, or other appendage) a noxious poison. The poison is equal to debilitating poison.

Greater
Poison Beast III
Beast Trait
Assigned Pet
Any Trainer
The beast either secretes (on its skin or by spitting) or injects (by means of teeth, claws, or other appendage) a noxious poison. The poison is equal to lethal poison.
Obviously you could scale these up or down or throw durations on them or whatever, I'm just putting the basic idea down here. Functionally you could just take the pack-mule trait for the 8 WP and spend them on poisons anyway so I don't think it's too crazy an idea. If the pack-mule trait is what is considered to be the 'how to make poisoned animals' trait that's cool too, maybe just add a blurb there saying 'poisons taken here are automatically pre-applied to the beast' to make the distinction.

Key Traits should really be organized by rank. So I did that if anyone cares.

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Old 07-09-2017, 01:48 AM   #12
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I like your way of doing it. That should work.
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Old 07-09-2017, 04:22 AM   #13
Junge
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More stuff! I'm sure some of this was discussed in the back-room but I'll just put it here on the off-chance it wasn't. These are just my thoughts/opinions, not intending to sound negative. Won't hurt my feelings if you just tell me this stuff has been settled already.

Swarm Mechanics
Does a Swarm trait pet receive all the bonuses of an assigned trait? For example, if I want a Large Beast pack of wolves, or a pack of Small Beast rats, I just combine large/small+swarm and all is well? Or do the 'assigned pet' traits require linking to a single, specific animal? I think this is how it's intended to work, but it's not 100% clear. I think a line on the Swarm trait indicating this is the case (if it is the case) would eliminate the ambiguity. Something like 'the Swarm counts as a single animal for assigning traits to'.

All Animals/Stat Buff Traits
On the current trait list there's only 2 traits which apply to 'all animals', and that's Packmule and Mimic Beasts. My understanding would be that taking the trait once would then apply it to all additional beasts under the command of the Beast Master. That's cool, but I'd argue that Brute Beast, Speedy Beast, Steady Beast, and Technique Training should be All Animals as well. Maybe fluff it up as 'the beast master's training improves the stats of all beasts under their control'.

Buff Traits in general
The only reason I suggest this is because those traits in particular are clearly outclassed by the +9 stat traits right below them. Even with the casual/power player distinction discussed in chat I feel there's just so little you gain from taking those 4 traits. Brute/Speedy/Steady represent a net gain of 4 points, whereas Technique Training represents a gain of only 2 points! Meanwhile Open/Chakra/Tactics represents a net gain of 8 points.

An example of what I mean: I wanted a beast to have +5 extra (stat), I could spend 1 point to raise it by 5 (Brute/Speedy/Steady), or spend 3 points to raise it by five (Open Training+2 extra points) but simultaneously gain 6 other stat points for free. In effect Brute/Speedy/Steady are saying that the extra +2 in a single physical stat are equal to +3/+3 in adjacent stats. I don't think that's a tremendously great trade-off, especially because to take tai styles past stage three you're going to need to boost all 3 physical stats anyway.

If I was going to really push the system I wouldn't even bother with the straight stat-gain traits, since Large/Small Beast traits give a the same +5 to a stat (TWO stats) AND they scale with rank AND you get additional fluff benefits like having a mount/hard to hit creature on top of that. They're key traits so there's some restrictions there, I understand. I feel like for most beast/character combinations though I'd have key traits to spare so I don't think it's that big of a trade-off.

Alternatively if giving 2-3 animals a +5 boost is seen as too much, I would argue that the boost should be increased to compensate for how low-impact the traits are. Something like +7 (which is basically a physical stage for most ranks) would make the immediate investment/return marginally more attractive. I get that the idea is that these traits are for vanilla beasts or people who don't do many threads but still want to have lots of stats, but I think they fall short of accomplishing even that. If I was in a position where I just wanted to minmax at creation and get the most out of my points out of the gate, I'd take Open Training. If I wanted to get the most physical stats possible, I'd take small/large beast. The only time I'd take +5 to one stat is if my beast didn't qualify to be large or small, and I really, really needed those +2 to a physical stat or +3 techniques to finish my 'build', AND I am the type of player who doesn't expect to finish 2-4 threads in a timely manner. That just feels like a really tiny niche.

Alternatively (alternatively) scale the stat-boosts with rank, so they aren't as unattractive for jounin/chuunin beasts.

Alternatively (alternatively alternatively) do nothing, it's not like having extra traits nobody should use would be all that bad. Gives room for swaps I guess.

Technique Training Specifically
Maybe consider making this give an extra list slot, rather than just +3 techs? It's so incredibly weak compared to everything else. You're basically paying one point and a limited trait slot to skip 2 threads (or less!) worth of points. As a comparison to what's being spent here, how many people would sacrifice 9 stat points on a character for an additional 2 jutsu at creation? A precious few, maybe, and only at the high end. I think most would conclude that to be a really awful trade.
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Old 07-09-2017, 04:16 PM   #14
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First I have to say that I absolutely love the new system, especially Role Reversal and I hope it makes it through to the final version because I would be so keen to make a character with it. But I do worry that it is a bit abusive with the Beast King/Queen Archetype combo special.

Just imagine quintuple Sennin level stats - Power Level over 9000.

Edit: Additionally I notice the base Beast Master archetype has no special trait, it should probably get some reworking as well other why would you ever take it over the combo archetypes.
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Old 07-09-2017, 05:23 PM   #15
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See. The reason for that is design drift. Originally, the beast master/puppeteer bonus was that you got to have a pet/puppets. The new character opportunities were the bonus.

Then we had combo archetypes, which were made at a different time by different people, and its interaction with BM and Puppeteer wasn't really given a lot of thought. So, frankly, if it would complicated the new system, my first instinct is just to get rid of/change the offending archetype bonuses.
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Old 07-09-2017, 06:41 PM   #16
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Junge.

You're looking at it right, but you're forgetting that each beast can only have a trait once unless otherwise stated. So you can open training your beast, and you might open training each of your beasts, good. But what about when you want beast A to get more strength after that? You can't open training, and besides making them large (which may not even thematically fit) you have the option of the brute beast trait which you can give them for each rank you have.

Alternatively, I can just make it so each trainer can only use open/chakra/etc on one of their beasts.
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Old 07-09-2017, 07:11 PM   #17
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So a gigantic jounin pet would have to have their Three role key lists be taken up by Great, Massive, and Gigantic in order to be real big, right?
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Old 07-09-2017, 07:13 PM   #18
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Yes. That is correct
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Old 07-10-2017, 02:50 AM   #19
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How will this change the Leader Non-shinobi archetype? Because, currently, with this system, this makes that archetype seem super fun but also maybe a little powerful, especially if it basically gives them additional beast 1 and 2 while letting the Leader still get a fourth and fifth follower. I don't object, because non shinobi are gonna get pwned anyways by other character types, but I want to make sure it gets thought about.
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Old 07-10-2017, 03:15 AM   #20
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Current solution route is to give them a limited list for traits they can take. So they can't go all wacky, since their 'pets' are people. But they can still build up their stats a bit.
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