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Old 06-06-2017, 03:21 AM   #1
merdle
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Default Bijuu and Jinchuuriki Discussion (.5 to .6) Get in Here!

Bijuu System Discussion!

Okay you guys, when we first set out to do the Bijuu system, we knew it would be a whammy. That's why when it was first released, we made sure to note that it was in an unfinished state. We have had a little bit of time with some Jinchuuriki characters being released, and some more in registry releasing now, so this is a good time to discuss the system as it is, and where we see it going in the future.

That's right, it is time for an engi micropatch.

There are a few avenues of discussion I've seen come up, and I want to address each of them, and what the staff has seen as possible solutions. I'll put each of them in spoilers.

Down below, I want you guys to do any of the following:
-Respond to the listed points
-Bring up other problems you have seen
-Bring up solutions you think might work
-Talk about aspects you like and want to have stay
-Call me awesome

Do any combination, don't be shy. If you don't bring up your points in here for everyone to see, don't get mad if later something is changed from under you.

Because that's the other part. When we make changes to this system, characters are going to get edited. We might grandfather stuff that is possible to grandfather, but I would rather the system be clean and across the board, than have people left with old problems for extended periods.

Okay, the talking points!











Okay everyone, get to talking. This thread won't be open forever, because we want to move to Bijuu .6 before we have too many, and before we move on to other site-wide stuff.
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Old 06-06-2017, 03:33 AM   #2
Kana
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Minipatches? In my Engi?

But in all seriousness and I've agreed to most points brought up about Bijuus and Jinchuuriki's in random discussions about Fortitude Drive gain reductions should have a 'may' clause in them and Drive should be about maintaining such as an action(s) that allow you to vent Drive without completely pulling you from combat.

On the Gourmand issue, I propose a 2 xp gain on eating a bijuu in a thread and a 1 loss in a thread. That way even if you don't eat a bijuu in a thread you still end up with a net neutral after the 1 XP you get for getting TP in a thread and the gain rate isn't completely ridiculous on the other side.
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Old 06-06-2017, 04:58 AM   #3
Kaen
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Drive/Control:
I like Jami's idea of redesigning the system around 50 drive instead. That's the problem that inspired me to suggest the Trust system. But it's also reminded me that a large part of what made these demons cool, was the wrestling with and then eventually coming to peace with them. Even if the 'trust' system like that doesn't work its way into the jinchuuriki design, I do think that as we redesign it, we should make room for something like it to represent a host's friendship/partnership with their Bijuu.

I don't feel the need to go into it real big detail unless someone brings it up,
cause I think you've managed to cover my point pretty well.
Spirit Breeder:
I find myself somewhat ambivalent as to the specifics, as long as you have more than one of little bijuuko, at least in potential. lazy thought was to have it as 'one bijuuko pet per tail, to a minimum of one' and call it a day,
but that does kind of make progress feel low. Having it as tails+1 does solve that problem, though I'm not sure if we ever want like, ten bijuuko wandering around in a thread at any point. All else aside, that just seems like it would be ridiculous. Imagine the shedding. Do you have enough rollers to clean that up? I don't.

I don't know if I want to give people more breed kiddos depending on rank, at least not like it is right now? I mean, put aside the abilities to manipulate so many different actors in a thread at once, even keeping track of that many bijuu kids seems like it'd be a book keeping nightmare. At this point, once I got 4 or so, I'd start leaving the rest at home, just so I didn't have to write about them all.
Gourmand
Asofar as Gourmands are concerned, my main question is, how often are people realistically going to come across Bijuuko?

Like, this isn't a setup for some riposte point, I genuinely do not know how often people will be running into them, if they need permission, ect, ect. Depending on their rarity, three points per thread with a gourmand bijuu might be totally kosher if you just don't gain an EXP point after a normal thread.

But that also loses the 'becomes more normal as time passes
aspect'

They could also get, like, a 'debuff' if they haven't eaten any bijuu for a time. I'm not entirely sure how that might work, but I thought I'd throw it in front so everyone knows it's there.

Part of me wonders if maybe they lose points and then get 'restored' to their highest point value+growth when they eat a bijuu . . . but that might a bit too much book keeping?
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Old 06-06-2017, 08:28 AM   #4
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I like the idea of tweaking the Drive numbers. As is stands now (at least for a Demon Weapon Jinchuuriki), dodging one attack and then drawing blood with your weapon on even a mook is enough to put you at the 15 Drive threshhold. If that's intentional, that means at no point is the character ever really able to pretend to be "regular".

I feel like hulking out/goin' ghost should more or less be a plot chosen act unless there's other forces at play: I love that you gain Drive for seeing a loved one get in trouble. I wish there where more quirks like this! Life or death situations -- most definitely.

Routine ninja fight against mook where the character doesn't need to borrow powers from their bijuu at all? Training missions? A non-powered fisticuffs (like Iron Man out of the suit brawling with someone to prove a point, for instance) and so on shouldn't threaten losing yourself to a demon...unless, of course, that's an intended sacrifice you make by playing a jinchuuriki. If this is the mess you get into by choosing the character archetype, that's all dandy.

I like how the bijuu possessed folks basically have curse seal mechanics built in -- you lose stats and jutsu, you get access to bijuu arts, your character is weird now. Lots of curse seals can be left "inactive", so maybe your bijuu should be toggled on/off depending on the situation? Routine missions/nothing serious/don't need this power, then the bijuu is dormant and drive isn't really a thing to deal with. When it gets serious/it's plot intensive/you wanna be a jerk, then you start measuring drive.

"Tearing off the seal" -- the opposite of venting Drive -- would be pretty hype, too. "I need this power, and I don't care what happens after I get it," and shooting up to a certain threshhold would be fun.

-----

So, my main interests in the system seem to lay with the relationship between the jinchuuriki and the bijuu. I personally wouldn't mind sacrificing bijuu XP or something for "Trust". Early on in a characters development it could be the small things, like when Naruto borrowed Kurama's chakra, and as a character's bijuu grows stronger and their Trust gets higher, it could be the really big endgame things -- like a "nice" bijuu cloak instead of a scary possession one.

Even if on engi there's no way to make friends with the bijuuko (they might be too simple/lack any empathy compared to the true bijuu), it would be nice for there to at least be a fluffy mechanic to represent friendship or control over the beast. Maybe after a certain event/trust/time, you can go up to the first threshold of Drive without suffering the ill effects, granting you access to the most simple of Bijuu Arts without losing control. Even if it stopped /there/, it'd be a nice little thing.

I personally would like to be BFFs with my little demon eventually, but even if that goal isn't available, my character sure is bullheaded about it.

///

As an aside, I thought encountering bijuu was just a thing we can incorporate into threads since they're supposed to be kinda...there. I was under the impression that it was just a type of thread we could do. I haven't encountered one yet, but I was planning on my miko adventures to follow a formula of youkai - > please a kami - > a bijuu did it sort of thing. It seems that the Gourmond archetype is encouraged to encounter bijuu quite often (and particularly to hunt them down to make dindins), so if this isn't the case I'm surprised and that should definitely be made more apparent in the handbook for the new patch. ("Encountering a bijuu is a rare and etc etc thing") or if we need GM permission or whatnot.


ASIDE from my rambling, I love the bijuu system! I love jinchuuriki! I love this higher fantasy/magic ninja aesthetic and I'm really glad to see it finally on Engi.

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Old 06-06-2017, 02:41 PM   #5
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Yes, the intent was that small bijuuko are free to have in your threads. They free roam and are pretty easy to kill as far as shinobi are concerned. So it isn't like spirit breeders and gourmands are Sol. They could even do a solo to pick up what they need.
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Old 06-06-2017, 05:53 PM   #6
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In that case, Merdle would you encourage the community as a whole to incorporate bijuu and the common knowledge of their existence into general threads. Of course, we'd all have to do so if and when it's appropriate and makes sense.

I just figure it's more interesting if it isn't just jinchuuriki specific activity that warrant these beasts' involvement.

Also I have to reiterate what VD said, this is an awesome system that brings a ton of cool possibilities to help rejuvenate Engi's old bones. As for improving the system itself, I do agree that it would seem very easy to build an immense amount of Drive for ordinary circumstances; at least in the life of a shinobi.

If we take canon as an example, Kurama's attention was only ever heightened when Naruto was pushed to his limits or in a life threatening situation. Perhaps the Drive numbers we have can reflect the drastic nature that incited Bijuu help.

Lastly, I think of Killer Bee. He seemed to be the ultimate in Jinchuuriki mastery, an example of complete partnership between beast and man. In our present system, it doesn't seem, to me, as if this kind of harmony can be achieved. If it can be, and I just didn't look hard enough, apologies.
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Old 06-06-2017, 06:44 PM   #7
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1- Bijuu art threshold

The way it's worded is maybe a little unclear? The way me and others understood it was that after reaching the threshold for a tech and using it, you learn it thus enabling you to use it at 0 drive in your upcoming threads. I think that part should be clarified for it to be more how you guys originally wanted it.

However, that brings up another point; some of the bijuu art techs require a lot of drive. Basically they can only be used when the jinchuuriki is no longer in control. Was that the original intention?

2- Drive gain and venting

I think the way you gain drive is reasonable, but that's not the current issue, as you mentioned. I believe that drive usually only goes up too high too fast if it is intentionally boosted up so it isn't much of an issue with most types of bijuu. The issue is that the only real way to vent drive is to have a time out and once you hit 50 drive, you are obligated to attack every post, meaning once you hit 50 drive it's just going to keep climbing. Shouldn't 50 drive on the scale of 0-100 be more of a 50-50 in control kind of thing?

3- Trust System

I don't know what exactly you guys have in mind for a trust system, but it's something I'd be interested in. It makes IC sense and I think it should be affected by rank and not just threads completed. Genin jinchuuriki are probably newbies who suck at controlling anything, right? But a jounin wouldn't have become a jounin if he wasn't.

4- I guess Merdle wants us to tell him he's awesome.
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Old 06-06-2017, 07:37 PM   #8
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Hey ya'll. Happy to weigh in, and admit that I've always been super impressed by the bijuu system as a whole. In my short time RPing as the Sand Jinchuuriki, despite how difficult it can be, it was always very fun. Anywho:

Bijuu Threshold/Clarity/Control/Bijuu Arts
Yep. I was confused by the "learning bijuu arts" situation. As a Jinchuuriki can use any attack he gets high enough drive for, there wouldn't really be a point in learning these techs and adding them to your app as we've all been doing, if you can't use them until you get to that drive again. In fact, they serve as incentives to go as high as you can in a thread every now and then so that later you can use this really cool bijuu tech without destroying the town yet again.

As for my jinchuuriki, I wanted to make the auto sand defense more rp appropriate and so I tied its ability to auto-defend with the bijuu art "Bijuu Senses". As long as this art is active, and gaining drive per post, her sand defense will be automatic (a big nerf, imho, from gaara's 24/7 auto defensive abilities. So it behooved me to "learn" Bijuu Senses so that Rika could employ this technique without being at 30 Drive.

Other techs, such as Presence, are a bit different. A jinchuu at 5 drive shouldn't be scaring anyone into reduced speed so it wouldn't make much sense to have such a strong technique be readily available, but again if I gotta be a monster to use it, it's useless. Merdle has already mentioned a rebalancing is needed for it, and I don't have a great idea on how at the moment but I just wanted to mention this. I'm basically of the stance that jinchuuriki should be allowed to employ techs they've learned without reaching the exact threshold... perhaps using stronger technique like this that you've learned jumps you immediately to your next threshold or something. Or maybe you have to be at least 2 thresholds away from the original to use it.

IE> A. Rika is at 15 Threshold. Tries to use Presence, but doesn't have enough drive. Fails.
B. Rika is at 30 Threshold. Tries to use Presence, doesn't have enough drive but she's two away and manages to do it. Drive threshold immediately bumps to 50.

IDK. Again, I don't think I've got any brilliant ideas on how to make it work better.
Drive Gaining/Venting
So, my jinchuuriki is in a unique position when it comes to gaining drive. I initially put 2 of my 4 points into Fortitude and chose the Cursed Seal Archetype. This combo helps me restrain drive way better than any of the current jinchuu's. Fortitude 2 + 10=5 reduction is a lifesaver when it comes to slowly gaining drive.

Now, here's a kicker. Since I created a list from her bijuu seal, all techs in that list gain drive. So Rika gains drive at an accelerated rate still, even though there are reductions. I guess I'm for a "MAY" clause, but again despite all rika's reduction clauses, she's gaining drive too fast so I dont really have a problem with drive going too slowly since if i want more drive i've got an assortment of techniques to use and buff up drive. I think there needs to be a slower pace in She is also still held to the being attacked/defending/harming loved ones clauses, which I really like and are interesting.

IE > Rika is at 45 Drive, and I don't want to hit 50. An enemy attacks, she defends and don't counter. After this post, her drive will drop to 15 and put her at 30 Drive. Interesting way to OOC vent. Though this is assuming I'm not currently employing any techs like shift or something that would again net out some of those loses.

As for venting IC wise. I do agree there needs to be some tool that a jinchuuriki, assessing how much theyve let the cat outta the bag, can employ to reduce drive. Because once you hit 50, there's noooo coming back. So far the only thing I can think to do after hitting fifty is employing the nefty cursed seal archetype which means temporarily going higher in drive and hopes that I don't destroy the world in the next two posts, afterwhich I can drop 50 drive and go below the 'must attack realm'.

I also agree with Kap in that 50 shouldn't be a must attack threshold as there should be a struggle going on for control. I suggest there can be some kind of failsafe switch on their cursed seal that they can use once per thread that temporarily tightens their seal and reduces drive/prevents drive from being gained. This might affect future drive gains for the rest of the thread I'd imagine.

Trust System / Bijuu Bonding
I mentioned this to Hitoko a little while ago, thinking about the fact that the trend seems to be that the longer you have a bijuu and actively work together, the more copasetic the relationship becomes. Naruto and Gaara displayed this very well and in very different contexts. Gaara went from being completely at the mercy of Shukaku, who was described as a terror to it's host, to completely subverting it's maliciousness. I don't think they ever really personified Shukaku like they did with some of the others (ie. killer bee's bijuu or the kyuubi). So trust seems to have equated to more of a shifting of power balance/ wills for them. But Naruto was able to go through various stages with Kyuubi. First borrowing bits of chakra, to having the kyuubi's chakra eat him alive whenever he'd use it, making it a crazed bijuu baby, to being a complete partner and making it less of a 100% Lost threshold and more of a 100% Control Threshold.

And while very glad to have these beginning threads with Rika where she's completely going crazy and trying to kill Kana/Merdle's spartoi, jeopardizing missions because drive is ruling her life, etc etc because I figured I would eventually create a story of how she learned to work more in unison with her bijuu or learn to control him more at higher drive instead of it being the other way around, I do agree that drive applications aren't at all helpful in say a sparing thread where Rika is simply socializing so to speak. If she can't be trusted to even spar with teammates, then she's gonna end up completely isolating herself from everyone around her and be really sad T_T.

I think a trust system, similar to a summons path, could really help with everyone's process. When doing a task that would help build the bound or build your ability to control your bijuu, instead of gaining an XP point, you can a trust point and with it, a perk.

It could start out slowly (IE. In a thread, stand up to the Bijuu and assert more dominance, and in exchange, once per thread, you can avoid the drive gains for one technique) to higher/harder tasks (IE. In a solo thread, instigate a conversation with your bijuu and learn more about their past, in exchange, your bijuu will allow your threshold to be available without giving up influence).
Well, that's all I've got for now folks.

Last edited by Geisha; 06-06-2017 at 07:46 PM..
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Old 06-14-2017, 05:20 AM   #9
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thank you guys.

We are going to see what we can do for .6.

All the possible changes may not go in. We are going to see if small changes can deal with a lot of the problems, instead of making massive adjustments. Hopefully the nature of the changes will make it possible to make the fluff work your way, instead of needing to hard code fluff.
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:37 PM   #10
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"From there, every threads, they can learn one Bijuu Art during the thread."

That's in the current info, don't know if we're missing a # or we got the plurality wrong.
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